Legislature(2011 - 2012)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)

03/28/2012 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY


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01:45:29 PM Start
01:45:45 PM Confirmation Hearing(s) || Alaska Police Standards Council
01:52:34 PM Judicial Council
02:04:15 PM HB6
02:15:14 PM SB168
02:17:15 PM HB215
03:06:58 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Board Confirmations: TELECONFERENCED
Police Standards Council:
Brad Reich - Kiana, Jamie Sunderland - Unalaska
Judicial Council: Kenneth Kreitzer - Juneau
+= HB 215 PIPELINE PROJECT: JUDICIAL REVIEW/ROW TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+= SB 168 GEOGRAPHIC COLA FOR JUDGES TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSSB 168(JUD) Out of Committee
+= SB 198 POLICE OFFICER PROTECTIONS/CERTIFICATION TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+= HB 6 REMOVING A REGENT TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
          HB 215-PIPELINE PROJECT: JUDICIAL REVIEW/ROW                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:17:15 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  FRENCH announced  the consideration  of HB  215. He  noted                                                               
that the committee  received a brief overview of the  bill at the                                                               
previous hearing  and that the Senate  committee substitute (CS),                                                               
version X, was  before the committee. He  recognized that Speaker                                                               
Chenault and Representative Hawker were present.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:17:53 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE CHENAULT,  sponsor of HB 215,  said his staff                                                               
would refresh the committee on the provisions in the bill.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:18:28 PM                                                                                                                    
TOM WRIGHT, staff to Representative Mike Chenault, reviewed the                                                                 
bill speaking to the following sponsor statement: [Original                                                                     
punctuation provided.]                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     The  objective of  House Bill  215 is  to prohibit  the                                                                    
     filing  of lawsuits  that have  the potential  to delay                                                                    
     construction  of  in-state   gaslines.  The  provisions                                                                    
     under  House Bill  215 modify  current statute  and the                                                                    
     provisions  only  apply  to state  land  rights-of-way.                                                                    
     Claims may be  filed only by an  applicant, a competing                                                                    
     applicant  or  a  person who  has  a  direct  financial                                                                    
     interest affected  by the lease of  a right-of-way. The                                                                    
     requests for  judicial review must  be filed  within 60                                                                    
     days of  the publication  of notice for  a right-of-way                                                                    
     lease application. Judicial review  may only be granted                                                                    
     for claims  challenging the validity of  the statute or                                                                    
     challenging  a   denial  of  rights  under   the  state                                                                    
     constitution.  Any claim  will be  barred unless  it is                                                                    
     filed within  the 60 day  time frame. [That  means from                                                                    
     the  effective date  of  this bill  since  most of  the                                                                    
     right-of-way leases on state  land have been granted or                                                                    
     are in  the process  of being granted.]  The Department                                                                    
     of  Environmental Conservation,  under the  Clean Water                                                                    
     and  Clean Air  Acts, is  exempted from  the provisions                                                                    
     pertaining to judicial review.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     All claims  are to  be filed  in Alaska  Superior Court                                                                    
     which  will have  exclusive  jurisdiction to  determine                                                                    
     the   proceeding.  The   court   will   not  have   the                                                                    
     jurisdiction to  grant any  injunctive relief  with the                                                                    
     exception of an issuance of a final judgment.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     This  legislation  is  modeled after  the  Trans-Alaska                                                                    
     Pipeline  legislation, 43  USC,  Chapter  34, that  was                                                                    
     adopted by Congress  in 1973 (43 USC,  Chapter 43, Sec.                                                                    
     1652 (d).)  Similar legislation to  House Bill  215 was                                                                    
     passed by the Alaska  State Legislature in 1973, Senate                                                                    
     Bill 3, related to the TAPS line.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     The  bill also  allows the  Alaska Gasline  Development                                                                    
     Authority  (AGDC)   to  move  from  a   common  carrier                                                                    
     requirement to  a contract carrier option.  This change                                                                    
     is  necessary to  pursue a  successful open  season and                                                                    
     project financing for an in-state gasline.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH recognized  that Ken  Vassar with  AGDC, Ann  Brown                                                               
with the  Department of Natural  Resources (DNR),  Daryl Kleppin,                                                               
Tina  Grovier,  Joe Dubler,  and  Dan  Fauske were  available  to                                                               
testify and/or answer questions.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH referred  to the  October 5,  2011 memorandum  from                                                               
legislative  counsel,  Donald  Bullock  Jr.,  and  asked  for  an                                                               
explanation of "direct financial interest."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT deferred the question to an attorney.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:22:33 PM                                                                                                                    
KEN   VASSAR,  General   Counsel,   Alaska  Gasline   Development                                                               
Corporation (AGDC),  said that someone  with a  "direct financial                                                               
interest" would primarily be a competing applicant.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked if AGDC would be the applicant.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR  VASSAR  explained  that Alaska  Housing  Finance  Corporation                                                               
(AHFC)  previously  leased  the  right-of-way and  part  of  this                                                               
legislative effort was to transfer the lease to AGDC.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH  asked how much  of the right-of-way AHFC  had under                                                               
lease.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR VASSAR said all of  the right-of-way was currently under lease                                                               
to AHFC.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked  if it was a continuous  right-of-way from the                                                               
North Slope to Anchorage.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR VASSAR  said that AHFC had  all of the rights-of-way  that DNR                                                               
had authority  to lease,  but that other  owners along  the route                                                               
were not part of the AHFC lease.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH  asked if anyone had  a map that showed  which parts                                                               
of the right-of-way were under lease to AHFC.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:24:52 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT said  he wasn't aware of a map,  but his understanding                                                               
was that  AHFC had  over 300  miles of  right-of-way and  that an                                                               
application  had been  submitted  to the  federal government  for                                                               
federal  rights-of-way.  He  noted  that Mr.  Dubler  might  have                                                               
additional information.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH  asked how  much of the  pipeline route  was federal                                                               
right-of-way and how much was state right-of-way.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
2:25:35 PM                                                                                                                    
JOE DUBLER,  Vice President and  Chief Financial  Officer, Alaska                                                               
Gasline Development Corporation (AGDC),  said there are 437 miles                                                               
of state right-of-way,  and once AGDC obtains  the federal right-                                                               
of-way  the combination  will represent  over 90  percent of  the                                                               
rights-of-way. He  suggested that  Dave Haugen, the  AGDC project                                                               
manager, might know  the exact number of miles  of federal right-                                                               
of-way.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH asked  Mr. Haugen  how many  miles of  the proposed                                                               
pipeline was federal right-of-way.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
2:26:06 PM                                                                                                                    
DAVE   HAUGEN,  Project   Manager,  Alaska   Gasline  Development                                                               
Corporation  (AGDC),  said he  would  follow  up with  the  exact                                                               
number, but it was over 200 miles.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked  if the proposed Act would  affect the federal                                                               
rights-of-way in any way.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT confirmed that the answer was no.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked if the pipeline  would have to cross land that                                                               
was neither state nor federal.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER said  yes; AGDC would have  to negotiate rights-of-way                                                               
to cross a variety of  lands including Native allotments, private                                                               
lands, and mental health trust lands.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked if AHFC  or AGDC currently held any rights-of-                                                               
way on private land.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER answered no.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked where most of the private lands were located.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER said  the bulk is in the Anchorage,  Big Lake area but                                                               
some  is near  Fairbanks and  Cantwell. He  offered to  follow up                                                               
with a map to show the different rights-of-way.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:28:06 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR FRENCH  asked if HB 215  gives AGDC the right  to negotiate                                                               
those rights-of-way and try to collect them in one corridor.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER  said no;  the bill applies  only to  state rights-of-                                                               
way.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH  asked  what  would   happen  in  the  event  of  a                                                               
recalcitrant  private  landowner   along  the  proposed  pipeline                                                               
route.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DUBLER  responded that  AGDC  is  asking  for the  right  of                                                               
eminent domain, so the property  would be condemned and taken for                                                               
purposes of  the gas  pipeline. He  confirmed that  the landowner                                                               
would receive fair market value for the condemned property.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:29:06 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WRIGHT   highlighted  that   there  was   already  statutory                                                               
authority  for  gas pipelines  to  invoke  the right  of  eminent                                                               
domain.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH  commented  that it  is  a  utilitarian  government                                                               
authority for the  greater good. He asked  which landowners would                                                               
be most affected by the proposed pipeline.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER  said it would be  private landowners in the  Big Lake                                                               
and Willow  areas and  AGDC expected  to begin  negotiations soon                                                               
with these landowners to obtain rights-of-way.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH  asked if, once  AGDC connected to  the distribution                                                               
network in Big  Lake, there would be sufficient  capacity to move                                                               
up  to  500   million  mcf  of  gas   without  constructing  more                                                               
pipelines.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DUBLER said  that was  correct; the  plan was  to enter  the                                                               
Enstar pipeline  system at  Beluga, so  the pipeline  won't enter                                                               
the Municipality of Anchorage.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:31:31 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR FRENCH asked Ms. Grovier  who might have a direct financial                                                               
interest.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
2:31:43 PM                                                                                                                    
TINA  GROVIER, Attorney,  Birch Horton  Bittner and  Cherot, said                                                               
the  language came  from existing  statute,  and it  might be  an                                                               
adjacent landowner  or a non-applicant  who wants  their comments                                                               
on  a  proceeding  to  rise  to the  level  of  direct  financial                                                               
interest in order to have standing."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH  asked if  a  competitor  might bring  a  challenge                                                               
because they, too, want to build a pipeline.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER agreed that was one possibility.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH  posed a  hypothetical  situation  of a  competitor                                                               
whose land the proposed pipeline would cross.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER qualified that it would be an adjacent landowner.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked  if an Anchorage consumer  could challenge the                                                               
pipeline.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER clarified  that the bill reflects  the same framework                                                               
as existing statute, with slight reordering.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH recalled the same  debate with AGIA; the Legislature                                                               
made  sure that  any challenges  would be  brought sooner  rather                                                               
than later so  that a project wouldn't get derailed  in the later                                                               
stages by a lawsuit. He asked  if AGIA adopted a 60-day or 90-day                                                               
timeline                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER  said she  couldn't speak to  AGIA, but  AS 38.35.200                                                               
has a 60-day timeline for someone to raise a challenge.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH reviewed  Sec. 5 starting on page 6  and agreed with                                                               
Ms. Grovier that it was all new language.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. VASSAR  said that under  the current statutory  language AGDC                                                               
wouldn't  have  the  background  to  know  whether  somebody  was                                                               
intended to be  included, and if it came to  a court challenge it                                                               
would be  difficult to identify  who would  be able to  carry the                                                               
burden  of demonstrating  a direct  financial interest.  It might                                                               
be, but  wouldn't have  to be,  a person who  wants to  lease the                                                               
land for some other type of  project and the AGDC project in some                                                               
way gets in the way of their ability to lease the land.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked  if the 60-day timeframe on page  6, lines [23                                                               
and 25]  refer to  a challenge to  the constitutionality  of this                                                               
provision.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT said yes.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER agreed and added that  that idea came from the Trans-                                                               
Alaska Pipeline Authorization Act  (TAPPA) legislation as opposed                                                               
to the direct financial interest language in AS 38.35.200(a).                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH highlighted  that Sec. 38.35.200 had  been law since                                                               
1973.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:38:52 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  offered  his  understanding  that  someone                                                               
could challenge the  constitutionality of a statute  at any time.                                                               
He asked if he was incorrect.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH recalled that it was done in AGIA.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
2:39:34 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. WRIGHT read the judicial review from AGIA as follows:                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     A person  may not  bring a judicial  action challenging                                                                    
     the   constitutionality   of   this  chapter   or   the                                                                    
     constitutionality  of  a   license  issued  under  this                                                                    
     chapter unless  the action is  commenced in a  court of                                                                    
     the  state of  competent  jurisdiction  within 90  days                                                                    
     after the date that a license is issued.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there was case law on that.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT said that John Hutchins  from DOL tried and was unable                                                               
to  find any  challenges  to  TAPS either  during  or after  that                                                               
period.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  COGHILL asked  for  an explanation  of  the language  in                                                               
Section 5 on page 5, lines 23-25.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER  explained that  the action refers  to the  signing of                                                               
the lease  with the state.  All the  references are to  the state                                                               
lease of the right-of-way between AGDC and DNR.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WRIGHT said  Mr. Hutchins  was  prepared to  expound on  the                                                               
answer he gave about challenges.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:41:38 PM                                                                                                                    
JOHN  HUTCHINS,  Assistant   Attorney  General,  Civil  Division,                                                               
Department of Law  (DOL), said the 60-day language  came from the                                                               
Trans-Alaska Pipeline  Authorization Act, but the  original model                                                               
was probably  from the  Emergency Price Control  Act of  1942. In                                                               
Yakus v. United States, the  U.S. Supreme Court upheld the 60-day                                                               
limit to challenge the constitutionality  of the Act or an action                                                               
by the  Office of Price  Administration (OPA). He said  he wasn't                                                               
aware of an Alaska case.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what the fact scenario was.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS  summarized that it  was a wartime challenge  of the                                                               
constitutionality of  the federal  OPA price  regulation statutes                                                               
that said that a case could only  be brought within 60 days of an                                                               
action. The U.S. Supreme Court  reviewed the case and upheld that                                                               
provision of the statute.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH referred  to  the April  15,  2011 memorandum  from                                                               
Legislative Counsel, Donald Bullock  Jr. that discussed how Moore                                                             
v. State might  apply to HB 215. He read  the following from page                                                             
5:                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
          The limitations on bringing a claim under AS                                                                          
      38.35.200(c) are set by law; the equitable remedy of                                                                      
     laches is not applicable.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH explained that the  Moore case concerned oil and gas                                                               
leases in Kachemak Bay. A  provision in that lease barred someone                                                               
from  bringing a  challenge after  a certain  length of  time. On                                                               
page  5  of  the  memo,  Mr. Bullock  said  the  court  indicated                                                               
disfavor of limitations  and found that the  plaintiffs were "not                                                               
guilty of  inexcusable delay" and  that sufficient  prejudice was                                                               
established on the record.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS responded that laches  is common-law doctrine and it                                                               
was his belief  that Moore was distinguishing  between common law                                                               
in  statute and  the  statute  of limitations.  This  is about  a                                                               
statutory limitation on  bringing an action, and  the question is                                                               
whether the Legislature  has the power to impose a  time limit to                                                               
bring an action.  He opined that Yakus and the  cases that affirm                                                               
the Yakus holding were more relevant than Moore was.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked Mr. Hutchins  to forward the Yakus citation to                                                               
his office.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:45:43 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR PASKVAN asked what type  of constitutional challenges the                                                               
bill seeks  to limit,  and questioned  how the  Legislature could                                                               
validate that it considered specific  limitations if they weren't                                                               
presented.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS  replied the  most obvious  constitutional challenge                                                               
would be  an action by the  commissioner to deprive someone  of a                                                               
property interest without due process.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PASKVAN   assumed  that  this  was   about  due  process                                                               
regarding the potential  loss of an economic  interest as opposed                                                               
to a non-economic interest.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HUTCHINS agreed  that it  primarily deals  with things  that                                                               
could be measured by an economic loss.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PASKVAN  reiterated that  the specific issues  related to                                                               
economic due process ought to be on the record.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DUBLER highlighted  that DNR  already issued  the lease  and                                                               
AGDC  followed  all the  statutory  due  process requirements  in                                                               
applying for the permit.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH clarified  that he was saying that  AHFC already had                                                               
the right-of-way and that HB 215 would pass it to AGDC.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER agreed.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS added that [AS  38.35.200(c)] would affect more than                                                               
the  existing   right-of-way  decision.  It  would   also  affect                                                               
permitting decisions that relate to  the right-of-way so there is                                                               
potential   for  a   constitutional  challenge   relating  to   a                                                               
permitting decision that's not yet been made.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:49:31 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COGHILL  asked what  a final  judgment would  be reviewed                                                               
Section 5, page 6, lines 28-30:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Notwithstanding AS 22.10.020(c),  except in conjunction                                                                    
     with  a final  judgment  on a  claim  filed under  this                                                                    
     subsection,   the   superior   court  may   not   grant                                                                    
     injunctive relief,                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS  posed a hypothetical  example of someone who  had a                                                               
permit to use part of the  land in the right-of-way corridor. The                                                               
construction activity  and pipeline impaired the  ability of that                                                               
person  to exercise  his rights  under  his land  use permit.  He                                                               
believed that  the commissioner  did not account  for his  use of                                                               
the land  or adequately notice him  of the pipeline such  that he                                                               
could comment  so he brought  a constitutional challenge.  If the                                                               
court were  to decide in  his favor,  he could get  an injunction                                                               
that  would  reverse  whatever the  commissioner  had  done  that                                                               
affected his interests.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
2:51:17 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR PASKVAN  asked if  the court would  be unlikely  to grant                                                               
injunctive relief if the total remedy was money.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS  said yes  and that was  one reason  that provisions                                                               
that bar  temporary injunctive  relief were  upheld in  the past.                                                               
However,  there  could be  circumstances  under  which a  damages                                                               
remedy could  be held to  be inadequate. He cited  a hypothetical                                                               
example  of a  stream  crossing that  required construction  that                                                               
could not be remediated entirely  with money. An injunction might                                                               
be barred in such a case.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR   COGHILL    summarized   his   understanding    of   the                                                               
circumstances under  which the court  would not  grant injunctive                                                               
relief.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS responded that the  point is to prevent legal delays                                                               
from delaying the project.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:53:23 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  asked if  the exact  route of  the pipeline                                                               
was established.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER  explained that AGDC  applied for  several alternative                                                               
routes  in  the  draft  EIS  process,  but  the  preferred  route                                                               
minimizes  the length  of  the  pipeline and  the  impact on  the                                                               
environment. The  final EIS,  due this summer,  will come  with a                                                               
record of decision and the federal right-of-way.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  asked  if  someone who  wants  to  file  a                                                               
constitutional challenge within 60 days  of the effective date of                                                               
this Act potentially would not know the route.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR.  DUBLER  clarified  that  this  only  applies  to  the  state                                                               
portion;  DNR  already  issued  that   lease  and  the  route  is                                                               
established.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PASKVAN asked  how state law compared to  federal law for                                                               
things such as stream protection.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER deferred the question to Tina Grovier.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. GROVIER  stated that  the provision in  Section 5  models the                                                               
Trans-Alaska   Pipeline  Authorization   Act   (TAPAA)  and   her                                                               
understanding was that there would  not be any comparable federal                                                               
statute that would apply to federal land.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH  asked if the  federal government  treats challenges                                                               
to federal rights-of-way the same  way that AS 38.35.200 does for                                                               
TAPS.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GROVIER  said  no,  and clarified  that  while  the  federal                                                               
government has  treated challenges to  its rights-of way  in this                                                               
manner  in the  past  -  under TAPPA  for  example,  she did  not                                                               
believe that  there was an example  that would apply to  the AGDC                                                               
pipeline.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PASKVAN  restated that  he was  trying to  understand the                                                               
current system  for someone to  challenge a  federal right-of-way                                                               
because of a stream crossing, for example.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
2:58:33 PM                                                                                                                    
MS. GROVIER offered to follow up.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH commented  that the state will  treat its rights-of-                                                               
way in one legal method and it  was fair to ask what legal method                                                               
the federal government will use for its rights-of-way.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
2:58:57 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  COGHILL  asked  if  the U.S.  Army  Corps  of  Engineers                                                               
(USACE) and  the Bureau  of Land  Management (BLM)  would explain                                                               
both federal  and state rights-of-way  to the public  in meetings                                                               
going forward.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. DUBLER  responded that the  USACE focused on  federal rights-                                                               
of-way  through the  draft  EIS process,  and  AGDC already  held                                                               
public meetings along the proposed route from Barrow to Wasilla.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR PASKVAN mentioned  a conflict last summer  on an Interior                                                               
waterway, and  asked if federal  right-of-way laws  might preempt                                                               
state  laws if  a federal  waterway  passed through  land in  the                                                               
state right-of-way.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS explained  that the Clean Water Act  uses the phrase                                                               
"Waters of  the United States,"  and there was some  ambiguity as                                                               
to what  that means.  Clearly, it  includes navigable  waters and                                                               
adjacent wetlands,  but a  waterway in  the Interior  probably is                                                               
not "Waters  of the  United States"  unless it  is adjacent  to a                                                               
river that is a navigable waterway, he said.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  PASKVAN   asked  Mr.  Hutchins   to  submit   a  written                                                               
explanation so he  could better understand where  federal law may                                                               
and may not apply.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. HUTCHINS agreed.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH asked if the provision  in subsection (d) on page 7,                                                               
lines 9-13,  was necessary because  the state was  taking primacy                                                               
on permits.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HUTCHINS  deferred  the  question  to  Ruth  Heese  who  was                                                               
responsible for the provision.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:02:32 PM                                                                                                                    
RUTH HAMILTON HEESE, Assistant  Attorney General, Civil Division,                                                               
Department  of   Law  (DOL),   representing  the   Department  of                                                               
Environmental Conservation  (DEC), explained that  subsection (d)                                                               
applies  to three  clean water  and clean  air programs  that the                                                               
U.S.  Environmental   Protection  Agency  had  approved   DEC  to                                                               
administer.  She said  that  to add  clarity,  DOL suggested  the                                                               
sponsor  make  the  following  changes  to  the  language  in  AS                                                               
38.35.200(d):                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 7, line 9, following "decision"                                                                                       
          Insert "or authorization"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 7, line 10-11, following "under"                                                                                      
          Insert "a program approved or delegated" and                                                                          
        Delete "authority delegated to the Department of                                                                        
     Environmental Conservation"                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:05:17 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR FRENCH summarized that appeals  of DEC permitting decisions                                                               
that  relate  to the  Clean  Water  Act  do  not fall  under  the                                                               
restrictions in AS 38.35.200(c).                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. HEESE clarified  that it applies to both the  Clean Water Act                                                               
and the Clean Air Act.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR FRENCH observed that land was being restricted.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT  explained that removing  the second reference  to DEC                                                               
[page 7,  line 11]  keeps the  EPA from  taking control  from the                                                               
state of programs under the Clean  Air Act. He said the state has                                                               
the  ability to  administer programs  under the  Clean Water  Act                                                               
under  the language  that Ms.  Heese described,  and the  sponsor                                                               
would be happy to make the suggested changes.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  FRENCH  thanked  the  participants  and  held  HB  215  in                                                               
committee.                                                                                                                      

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